22. Healthy Male Sexuality with Heather Matthews
Healthy Male Sexuality with
Heather Matthews and James Christensen
Transcript
Heather Matthews: I'm really passionate about this idea around men and shame around their sexuality. I work with a lot of men in my practice, which I really enjoy, and some of them feel a lot of shame about their sexuality. The way that I see it play out is they really hide themselves sexually in their relationship. In order to not be selfish or not meet the very male stereotype we think of around sexuality, they kind of leave the sexual relationship up to their wife and just say, "What do you want? Tell me when you want it." They don't share what they want because they feel it's a selfish thing. Anytime their body responds to sexual things, there's a lot of shame about it.
That was surprising to me, and it's why I wanted to have this conversation with you, you being a male and a therapist, because it was a very different picture than what I had been given. I even told my supervisor that I wanted to find a good resource to help men embrace their sexuality and get rid of the shame around it, but I had a really hard time finding good resources. In the last 10 or 20 years, there's been a huge focus on female sexuality, which was needed, but I think it kind of left men in the dust a little bit. I think today's men, the millennial and Gen Z generations, don't want to take on a lot of this very toxic masculinity. And I think, instead, they've turned more to a lot of shame, thinking, "I'm not going to share and I'm going to kind of hide this part of myself." I want to hear what your thoughts are about it.
James: I definitely grew up with the idea that sexuality in general was not okay, and specifically my sexuality as a boy and a man was especially not okay. There are reasons for that, cultural reasons, but it is dangerous. It does cause a lot of harm when not properly managed. There's good reason to fear unharnessed male sexuality more than unharnessed female sexuality, to be honest. I do think an out-of-control, sex-crazed man is more dangerous than an out-of-control, sex-crazed woman. I think that's probably a true statement. So there's a reason this has happened, and I also agree with you that it's important to do something about it.
Heather Matthews: Because I think some men, in order to handle that, have then shut it all down with a lot of shame. That's not the answer either. As you know, you're part of a lot of men's groups. How do you guys help foster this more healthy sexuality? Where do you go? Do you go to podcasts? Are there books?
James: One of my transformative experiences was sitting in a circle in a men's group during a two-day retreat. We just sat down and started talking about sex. It was very open, with people sharing about being sexually abused and about sexual shame. Every man took a turn sharing the most vulnerable sexual experiences they'd ever had, from childhood through adulthood and marriage, and what it has been like to experience sexual difficulties in their life and the pain tied up in that. It's very related to what you're talking about, where men aren't supposed to have sexual problems. We're supposed to have it all figured out, for it to be easy and simple, like you were saying.
That was a precious memory to me. We sat and talked about these things for a couple of hours, no holds barred, revealing our true experiences. It was a place where it was okay to feel deep sexual shame and to talk about the pain you'd experienced. It's just this precious thing, knowing that I'm not alone and not the only one who experiences those things. Men generally don't talk about those things. When we talk about sex, we talk about it in a way that is wildly unrealistic.
Heather Matthews: Very unrealistic. And our culture emphasizes that, and gives those expectations. You get the idea of, "I should know this, this should come naturally." A lot of times we tell our kids, "You'll figure it out. It's a natural thing." It's not.
James: Good sex isn't natural. Good sex takes a lot of work. There is a certain naturalness to it at a very low level, but if you want to create something better, that does take a lot of work.
Heather Matthews: Yes, a sexual relationship. We can have intercourse like animals do, but as humans with our prefrontal lobe, we want it to be a human experience.
James: So what has worked so far for you? You said you like to work with male clients, and obviously you've been interested in this topic. Where have you found success so far?
Heather Matthews: The book that I did find, to be honest, I don't love. It's very repetitive. It's written by Barry and Barry, who have written a lot of books about sex. It's a husband and wife team; he's a therapist and she has a degree in communications. They've written a lot of books about it, so he was the one I turned to. I read this contemporary male sexuality book that talked a lot about the myths around sex. When it comes down to men feeling shame and hiding this part of themselves, he has what's called the "good enough sex model," or the GES model. Have you heard of it?
James: No, I haven't.
Heather Matthews: In my human sexuality class in grad school, we used his book. It's amazing to me that in grad school, the human sexuality class isn't even required; it's just an elective. Anyway, the good enough sex model says that there are four different parts to our sexual relationship and experience: desire, pleasure, eroticism, and satisfaction. Using this model, he'll say this over and over: Sex is a team sport. Each person is responsible for their own part in each of those four parts. It is a team sport.
When it comes to the first one, desire, there are two different types of desire: spontaneous and responsive. With spontaneous, your body initiates it first, and then your brain catches up. With responsive, you have to get your brain going, and then your body catches up. One is not better than the other. A lot of men experience more spontaneous desire and have shame about that—shame about asking for it, wanting it, and desiring it easily. I really lean into the idea that that's actually a really good thing. That can really bless your life, that it's on your mind. It's about taking away that shame and understanding what really is in your control and what's not. A lot of times what happens in our body—the way our brains, feelings, and bodies work—is not in our control, but it's our actions behind that that are. It's kind of taking more of an ACT perspective.
James: I remember what you're talking about. I remember being about 18 years old, and some older guy at church was talking about sexuality and said, "If you're on a date and you're doing anything that causes you to get an erection, then you're doing something bad." And I was like, "Bro, I'm on a date, I have an erection. That's how it goes." I know he's 55, and maybe he hasn't had an erection in 10 years and doesn't remember what it's like to be a teenager. But it's so interesting, these incredibly arbitrary and wildly unrealistic rules people talk about. This idea that it's wrong for you to be aroused was very common in my youth—that if you're aroused, you're wrong. You should not be aroused; it's not okay; you're bad. So what you're saying is that it's actually very normal, and what matters is how you handle yourself when you're aroused. That's what matters.
Heather Matthews: Yes, and a lot of times it's out of our control. So why are we putting rules and expectations on it? I have some clients who will say, "I'll see a beautiful woman walking down the street, and my body responds to that. I feel so much shame about it." The "shoulds" come out, and then they get hooked by it, instead of thinking, "Oh, the female body is beautiful, and my body responds to that." We give the erection and the meanings around erections way too much power, both in our youth when they're happening spontaneously, and even in older men when it's not coming as easily and their bodies are changing. We give it way too much power.
James: When you were talking about desire and being a higher-desire partner, one thing that came to mind was that if I feel a lot of shame around sex, part of what I'm calling desire could actually be a desire for my wife to make me feel less shame. If I grew up in a shame-based sexual model and I feel shame about feeling desire, if she desires me, all of a sudden my desire feels okay. If she doesn't desire me, then my desire feels wrong—which is not true. Her lack of desire for me doesn't determine whether I'm handling my desire correctly. Theoretically, the way I handle myself is what matters. So I need to be careful. My job is to take care of my own sense of sufficiency and worthiness; it's not her job. If I'm outsourcing that to her, then that's obviously going to get in the way of a good sexual relationship.
Heather Matthews: Right, and I think a lot of times the more you become more solid in your desire and it's not so much about anxiety, you're able to appreciate it more and use it for good in your relationship.
James: I think what you're pointing at is the ability to tolerate intensity. If I feel very intense desire, sexual intensity, shame, or some sort of discomfort—maybe I'm being rejected—how well can I handle myself while I feel that? What often drives bad behavior is a desire to get away from intensity. I feel something I don't like feeling, and I don't know how to just handle that feeling and be okay with it. So, I do something unwise because I think it will get me away from this feeling I don't like having. But the best solution is for me to learn to just feel the feeling. That way, my behavior is driven by my values and who I want to be, instead of being driven by avoiding discomfort and intensity.
Heather Matthews: Yes. Because when you actually appreciate your desire and see it as a good thing, you're going to respond to it differently by changing those meanings around it.
James: That's why I like to use the word "intensity"—because it's neutral. Intensity isn't necessarily bad or good; it's just intense. It's like hot sauce. Hot sauce isn't objectively bad or good; it's intense. Rollercoasters are not inherently bad or good; they're intense. If I want sexuality to be a good part of my life, I have to be able to handle intensity, because sex is intense, sexual desire is intense, and sexual rejection is intense. If I want to be sexual, I have to do the work of learning to tolerate intensity. I have to get used to the hot sauce because it's spicy.
Heather Matthews: Yes. And this desire is actually good. To see that intensity as not scary... The second one is pleasure and touch, and again, being the giver and the receiver of both. A lot of men with shame will say, "I will touch you, I will do this for you," and not ask for anything in return. That's one thing I've noticed. Again, it's a team sport—both of you sharing, touching, and building on that.
The third one is eroticism. There's so much shame around eroticism. I get a lot of questions from my male clients, but also from female clients who will come in and say, "My husband wanted me to ask you, is this okay?" It's interesting. I took a lot of classes from Camie Hearst, who is a great teacher, and I learned from her that sex is where we play. A lot of the themes from childhood play out there. We see a lot of those same themes in our sexual relationship. It's a place to escape the real world and live in a fantasy. You see themes like good guy/bad guy, power differentiation, and all these things. That's part of our eroticism, and it really starts to develop very young, around seven years old, when we're developing our sexual selves. But we put a lot of shame around it. Yes, there are people who do non-consensual things, but as long as there's consent, seeing it in that picture changed my ideas around fantasies. I'd like to know your thoughts about it.
James: I agree with you. The caution I would add is that if there's only one specific way I can get aroused, if I rely on a certain kink, that's something for me to look at. It could be what's called an eroticized disgust reflex, where wires get crossed in the brain between something disgusting and something erotic. It's super delicate because, as you said, it is a place to play with things that are not real, like cops and robbers. But if I'm limited—for example, if I had to be humiliated to get aroused—that would probably be something I would want to work on because it's going to limit my sexuality. People often say, "Don't yuck someone's yum," which I agree with. But if my brain is wired so that I can only get aroused by being humiliated, that's going to lead to a very limited sex life. I would be better off if I could try to grow from that starting point and develop a richer eroticism.
Heather Matthews: I think what's problematic about what you just said is the rigidity of it. The model is about flexibility, exploration, and both people. So anytime something is rigid, or "I can only do it this way," that's what's problematic.
James: But that is the reality for a lot of people. I would say it's pretty common for people to have limited erotic maps. And just like any other human limitation, it's something that can be worked on. It's not something to be ashamed of. It's just acknowledging, "This is how I am." Many of us are pretty limited erotically, and we don't have to stay that way. The wonderful thing about the brain is how flexible it is and how much it can change. It tends to resist change, but it's like changing the body. It's really hard to get in shape, but it's not impossible.
Heather Matthews: I find so many metaphors for sex happen around food. Like going to the same restaurant over and over and eating the same things—that's not going to be full and rich, right?
James: I like to use a snowboarding metaphor. My wife is an amazing snowboarder, and I am not. I will very happily go down the blue runs all day, and she will not. She's like, "Where are the cliffs? Where are the trees? Where are the trees growing on the cliffs?" She wants to go snowboard that place, and I'll be like, "Okay, I will see you in a while." But realistically, if I want snowboarding to be a rich part of my life, the better I get at it and the more different areas of the ski resort I explore, the more I'm going to enjoy it. I don't know how to ride moguls; she does. Her snowboarding experience is richer than mine because she can ride more parts of the park than I can. I think there's a good parallel there. It's worth trying things and expanding what I'm capable of. If I just want to give up and ride the same run every time, that's fine, but it's a limited thing. That's me accepting a certain limitation in my life.
Heather Matthews: I love that metaphor. I'm going to steal it. It's a good one, and it's non-food, because most of mine are around food. But a lot of men will say, "We'll do whatever you want to do. Where do you want to go? What do you want to do?" A lot of these men with sexual shame are too afraid to share their fantasies, their eroticism, what they like, what they don't like, or try new things. They will put that responsibility on their partner and say, "I'll do whatever you want to do" as a way to handle that anxiety.
James: Do you think it's because they're afraid of rejection? They're afraid of being seen as oversexed or over-erotic or not in line with what should be expected.
Heather Matthews: I think there are many reasons: afraid of rejection, afraid of that stereotype of masculinity that they've been given, or afraid of being selfish. That's the word I hear: "I don't want to be selfish." They think men and sex are selfish, so in order not to be selfish, "I'm just going to let her make all the decisions."
James: There's a nuance there. I think they're more worried about being seen as selfish. If I'm concerned about that, I need to be the one looking in the mirror at the end of the day and asking, "Was I a generous lover today?" I need to be answering that question myself, instead of just imagining how my wife is answering it. Obviously, her feedback is important, but I need to be the evaluator at the end of the day. If I want to be a better person, I have to be the one looking in the mirror and saying, "I am okay the way I am right now. I accept myself fully, and I want to be even better tomorrow." That very much applies. You're talking about this fear of being selfish. Obviously, I don't want to be selfish, but the only way to work on that is for me to take responsibility for both making the change and evaluating the change. If I grew up in this culture of shame, I need to take a close look at the basis on which I'm evaluating this.
Heather Matthews: Well, there's a piece of our sexuality that is for ourselves, right? Our sexual self and our sexual relationship aren't just for the other person. What does your sexuality mean to you? And don't talk about it just in terms of another person. A lot of times, our culture teaches that it is a relational thing, and it is, but there is "self" in it too. So, exploring that self side of "How am I sexually? How do I feel about my own sexuality for myself?"
James: I agree. I have to be responsible for asking, "Am I using my sexuality to bless my own life as well as my partner's life?"
Heather Matthews: And then the last one is satisfaction, which a lot of times we equate to an orgasm. That's the model we've been given, but satisfaction is much more than that.
James: It's kind of funny because I think it's extremely common for men to feel unsatisfied 10 minutes after an orgasm. When you're aroused, you're in an altered brain state. Then after you orgasm, you come back into your normal brain state, and what seemed like a really good thing suddenly seems dissatisfying. I think what that's usually about is if the underlying thing that I want is to be desired and cared about—if I want my partner to really desire me and love me a lot and adore me.
What I'm talking about is bypassing. The traditional way of having sex is to get our bodies aroused so that we can move past the emotional block between us. That's called bypassing. A healthier model of sexuality is to follow the connection between us, focus on the emotional connection, and stay in direct contact. I'm not going to allow my pursuit of sexual pleasure or orgasm to move me past the point where I'm in contact. That leads to a satisfying sexual encounter.
What usually happens is, at some point, the anxiety gets too high to where I have to break contact with you. The same thing happens in sex. As soon as my anxiety mounts, I'm going to look away—not necessarily physically, though usually it is—but I'm also going to direct my attention elsewhere and not be in contact with my partner. That feels okay while I'm super aroused because being aroused is overwhelming to this sense of disconnection. I can have disconnected sex while I'm aroused, but as soon as my arousal goes away, it doesn't feel good anymore. I go from this artificial high back to the idea that, "Oh, this person doesn't care about me very much." And coming down off that sexual arousal feels really painful.
The opposite situation is if I can maintain contact. When there reaches a point in a sexual encounter where I feel myself drifting away or I feel my partner drifting away, I need to stop and just say, "Hey, I'm drifting away," or "I think we're drifting apart." I need to bring this out and be willing to stop. What happens is people start going in pursuit of an orgasm and don't care what happens along the way. I think that's what leads to dissatisfaction—when I come down off my sexual high, it doesn't feel good anymore.
Heather Matthews: Yeah, and I think we can all attest that an orgasm is an eros killer, right? It builds and builds, but focusing only on that is not satisfying.
James: I think it's especially so for men. I don't know what it feels like to be a woman, but I suspect that it's not as intense a drop in eroticism post-orgasm as what men experience. It's pretty sharp for men. Your level of interest in sex drops precipitously after an orgasm. I don't think that's necessarily true for women, maybe for some.
Heather Matthews: Yeah, for some women, because I think women's orgasms are much more flexible and variable. Some do experience a sharp up and then a sharp down, and some can have multiple ones. So I agree with that. But ultimately, if your whole sexual relationship and all the meaning of desire is focused on this orgasm, it is really limiting.
James: It is very limiting.
Heather Matthews: The real satisfaction... what Barry and Barry talk about is that after the orgasm is just as important as before, really leaning into connection during that time.
James: I think if you want to have connection after the orgasm, you have to not abandon it before. If I disconnect from my partner, have an orgasm, and then they're like, "Okay, let's reconnect," it's probably not going to happen. We should have just stayed connected the whole time. That's the thing. And that often means people, especially men, experimenting with non-orgasmic sexual encounters. I don't think it's as big a deal for women, but maybe I'm wrong. I think it's an especially big deal for men, who tend to be focused on getting to orgasm. I think that's harmful.
Heather Matthews: I was going to say, I think that's what we've been taught sex is, right? Arousal, intercourse, and that's it. That's very limiting to both men and women.
James: Most people are going to want orgasm to be a part of most sexual encounters. That's very normal. You just want to make sure it's not getting in the way of pleasure, satisfaction, and all those other things. It can't be the sole focus, because it destroys everything else if it is.
Heather Matthews: In the "good enough sex" model, they talk about sex as an erotic flow. It's a story, a process. It starts very early on, and the erotic flow continues even after. When you embrace the model that this is a process, sex is the entire experience. That's why I like the good enough sex model. It's about flexibility, not performance, but really focusing on the process of it all, just being a part of your life. There are no rigid rules. I really like this model and it's why I use it. It says that sex is asynchronous, not synchronous, and it allows for that. It gets rid of rules like, "We need to orgasm at the same time for this to be a good experience." Sometimes someone's really into it and someone's not. Ten to fifteen percent of our sexual encounters are dissatisfying, and we allow for that to be okay, thinking, "Oh, that wasn't that great," but then we're flexible about it. The model is about asking, "What are our values around our sexual relationship with ourselves and with others?"
James: I think it's important to mention that sexual problems are normal in long-term relationships. Every couple deals with them, and it's just part of the struggle of being married. It's just the way it is. I sometimes say that the human brain isn't really designed for marriage or for a long-term, committed sexual relationship. It's like my body isn't designed to run marathons or lift hundreds of pounds unless I really want it to be. I can help my body become capable of things if I put in the effort and tolerate the discomfort of doing that. If I wanted to run 100-mile races, that would be possible, but it would require me to tolerate a lot of discomfort for growth.
Creating a really good marriage or a good sexual relationship requires a similar amount of commitment, effort, and tolerance of intensity and discomfort. I'm a runner, but I'll go out and run a couple of miles, and if I don't feel that great, I'll just walk. That's fine, but it means I will never be a great runner unless I change that. I would have to be much more serious about it, and it's just not something I prioritize. The same thing applies to marriage. If I want to have a really good sexual experience, I have to be willing to tolerate some discomfort for it. I have to be willing to really look at myself and what I'm offering. Like you were talking about in the beginning, what baggage do I have from childhood, cultural traditions, and what I learned in my family? What am I dealing with, and am I willing to push through some discomfort to get stronger?
Heather Matthews: Yeah. I think we both need to really watch how we are talking about sex and male sexuality. Are we talking about it in a more positive, helpful, affirming way? A lot of research has been done on this, and what they're finding is that men and women are actually more similar sexually than we are different. The differences are more individual than between men versus women. When we talk about men versus women, we're joining in a power struggle conversation around sex instead of a helpful one. I think all of us as human beings have a desire for deep intimacy and connection, to be known and to share all parts of ourselves. One of my professors said that human beings struggle with monogamy, but we struggle with polyamory, too. Anytime we're in a relationship with someone else, it's going to be hard and difficult, and yet it helps us to grow and develop.
James: There's an old joke about that, which says, "Polygamy is having too many wives, and monogamy is the same." It's just a joke. But no, marriage is hard. It's the way it is. I agree with you.
Heather Matthews: And satisfaction, too, right? When you're doing it well and you embrace the difficulty, like you said, sitting in that discomfort and learning to tolerate it brings about peace and joy.
James: Well, Heather, where can people find you?
Heather Matthews: I'm in Boise, Idaho. My website's Heather Matthews Counseling.
James: Okay. And you mostly work in person and you work with couples as well as individuals.
Heather Matthews: Yes, I like the variety. I see teens, couples, and individuals. I like the variety in my life.
James: There you go. That was a great callback. Okay, well thank you so much for coming on my podcast. I really appreciate it, and it was a pleasure to talk to you.
Heather Matthews: Thank you for having me.
James: Okay, I'll talk to you later.
