Episode 2: Collaborative Conflict in Relationships

In this episode I join Chad Fraga LMFT to talk Collaborative conflict in relationships

Transcript:

So Chad, why don't you read the vignette and then let's talk about what we think about the situation.

So yeah. Am I the asshole for telling my husband to stop eating like he's never seen food before? I will try to make this short, but don't judge.

Just off the title 29. I'm a 29-year-old female. Went out to dinner with my husband, 28 fe uh, male last night. Nothing fancy, just a chain sports bar, and it's, and it, and it being a Friday, the place was packed. We sit, place our order, and we're catching up on the day. Everything's going fine. When the waitress brought out, brought out our appetizer, my husband grabs about four decent sized tortilla chips and scoops an actual mountain of spinach, dip with them and shoved the whole thing in his mouth.

And when I say shoved, I mean shoved his fingers in his mouth with the food. By the time I'd had three chips with some dip, the entire rest of the appetizer was gone, so I was already irked and embarrassed because of, of course, people were starting, were staring at us. I said as much to him, and when he said he didn't see what he was doing wrong, I told him, you're acting like you've never seen food before.

It's embarrassing. He didn't say another word to me after that and has barely spoke to me today either. I don't think I'm the asshole for telling him I was embarrassed by how he was eating and annoyed that most of the appetizer was eaten by him. But I may have taken it too far with the last comment. I.

For further context. No, this isn't the first time this has happened. I've told him multiple times. It's embarrassing when he does this and asked him why. So I can try to help or at least understand a bit better. It's only at this specific chain, and his answer always is either, I don't know, or that he really loves Spinach dip.

They have. He also does this at home, but I don't really care when he's at home because I'm not going to dictate how he acts in the privacy of our house. Also the No, but I'm sure people may ask. No, he did not grow up with food insecure household. They weren't rich but not struggling. And neither are we struggling now.

No, there's no history of eating disorder either in his or my family. With all that said, am I the asshole?

So what's your, what's your yes or no on this?

Um, I believe that very few people are assholes. Um. But maybe there was some, it doesn't

surprise me at all,

but maybe their asshole behavior, and I don't even know if disqualifies an asshole behavior, but it was kind of mean.

I, when I first, when I first read it, I was like, yeah,

I don't know how, how are you imagining her emotional? So when you read it, I was imagining her sending, saying these things like in kind of a, a kind, collaborative way. But I doubt that's what really happened.

Yeah, I mean, who knows? Tone obviously doesn't get, you know, translated very well via text, but, um, I, I, I imagine that she was trying to be playful.

I, I don't think that she was actually really trying to insult him or hurt his feelings. I think she was trying to use the hyperbole to, to make her point. Um, but that's, that's not really relational thinking. That's kind of what my, my whole basis of this is, is you're not thinking relationally. I think that's what, um.

I'm noticing at least. What about you though? What's your, I mean, you read it, what's

your Yeah, so for me it's all, it's so interesting because she presented it as if, do the words I said make me an asshole. Right, right. And I think she's asking the wrong question. 'cause it has nothing to do with the words.

I mean, the words were fine. Uh, what the question, like the real issue here is. Communication, especially, you know, in a marriage is 90% emotions and 10% words. And so the emotional load of what she said was way more important than whatever words she said. And I don't find the words she said to be particular offensive.

Um, so. My guess is because this affects her emotionally. When she said this, there was a pretty heavy emotional load to what she said, and, and that is, you know, that's getting her further away from what she wants. So she wants, you know, she wants her husband to eat more politely in this restaurant and the way she handled it is not helping her case.

Um, and.

I don't know. It's just so important to get to the center of what's actually happening here is that, you know, she was experiencing significant emotional distress in this moment, and her solution to this stress was try to talk to him about what he was doing. Um, but then that increased his distress and it's gonna make him, it's just gonna make it really hard for him to chase, to change his behavior.

Yeah. And I think what, I don't know if we wanna start. Um, going into this side of the thought that I had, but one of the things that really struck me was that, um, you know, she says that like, um, this isn't the first time it's happened. I've told him multiple times, he also does it at home, but I don't really care about that very much because at home, if you're gonna embarrass yourself, that's on you.

And so there's this idea of this image thing about what they look like out in public as a couple. And that to me felt very judgy. That to me was something that, you know, maybe your partner doesn't have very good manners, and what are you gonna do with that when you are out into public and how do you go about.

Working with your partner when they potentially don't have the best manners, are you going to just accept them for who they are or are you going to talk to them about how that maybe impacts you? Right.

I think, I think you can do both. I think you can accept them for who they are and state your preference.

And so I always talk, I, I encourage couples to talk about perception and preference, and so this case it would be, hey. You know, my perception is that you, um, eat like you've never seen food before. You eat very rapidly, um, when we're out in public, uh, much more rapidly than I would like you to eat. So my preference is that you slow down and eat more slowly.

Um, and it is significant that this affects her more when they're in public than, than when they're at home. My guess is that it's harder for her to pay attention to how her husband treats her when they're at home, uh, because she's probably kind of used to being poorly treated, would be my guess, and that when she's in public, she's more sensitive to being judged by others, and so she's more sensitive to his behavior in the way that it might affect the way others see her, as opposed to if he treats her poorly at home.

She might not even pay attention to that because she might have a kind of a blindness or an insensitivity to that kind of treatment, and this would probably be something that's left over from childhood for her.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, you went straight into attachment stuff and how she was able to really show up for this moment.

Hey, you know, I, I feel for her though, because she's clearly frustrated. You know, she's clearly frustrated. It's on a Friday after a long week maybe, you know, she's not her best self. Do I think she's the asshole. Not necessarily. How would you phrase it though? What would you call what she was doing?

Um, I think it's good that she spoke up and I think, uh, there's, I think the way you do it matters.

And so my suspicion is I. She wasn't as civil about it as the way she portrayed it in her writeup. And so when we write these things up, we portray ourselves as being, well darling, the way you are eating is not quite considerate in reality. She was honestly quite frustrated. She was probably pretty angry in, in that anger carried through in her voice, and that's really the issue.

What she's saying is very reason. It's just, it's a very reasonable request. You know, um, I kind of identify with, I have a tendency to eat very quickly, and so like, there's a little sensitivity here, but it's very reasonable to ask your partner to eat slowly. Like that's a, just a reasonable request.

Especially like, you know, if you're sharing this dish and heats 80% of it and only saves 20% of it for her, totally reasonable. And the way you make that request matters a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I wanted to note too is obviously his reaction to this, which is basically moving away, not speaking to hi her for, you know, a whole day.

Totally stonewalling, totally avoiding the conversation, creating this power dynamic in the relationship that doesn't work towards healing. Right. And just saying like, well, I, you, you don't get, you don't deserve to be talked to at this point, right? Because of how much you hurt me, right? Mm-Hmm. And that, that to me showed a lot of immaturity.

If that's what happens, um, you know, with, with the man in this instance, I, you know. Show up to the occasion, you know, show up and say, Hey, what you said was hurtful, or whatever he's feeling, I'm assuming at that point was that he felt really hurt. He felt called out, he felt judged that he doesn't feel supported by her or whatever it is.

He needs to be able to talk through that with her. That's, that's kind of why I was thinking about that and his behavior too.

Yeah. And I would see that as a punishing behavior. And so, you know, him withdrawing that way is just making it clear that, uh, if you stand up to me, I'm going to punish you by withdrawing my affection from you and even my presence, like I'm not gonna talk to you at all.

Um, very common. I mean, it's fight or flight, right? And so it's just a very common technique to try to control a person who's saying, well, if you don't treat me the way I wanna be treated, um, then you don't get to be with me at all. You don't get to have any interaction with me. So

yeah, just as a level of I.

I wanna say immaturity, but I don't wanna sound mean when I'm saying that. I mean, really, I think men try to go about, especially men, try to go about solving their emotional problems in very immature ways, and him being able to withdraw, throw up the power struggle. You know, I. Put the mode around him, you know, that's not really solving your problems,

so, mm-hmm.

Yeah,

so, so my advice to her in this situation would be, you know, so she does the thing in the restaurant and then he withdraws, and now they're stuck in this, you know, stonewalling situation. And so I would say this is a great opportunity for you to come and apologize for what you did, which is like, hey, um.

I got defensive in the restaurant last night and I'm really sorry. Yeah. Okay. And that would be the end of the apology. Okay. And he probably, you know, he reacts, how he reacts, it doesn't matter. And then the next part would be, um, you know, I prefer that you not eat that way. Um, not only when we're in public, but I prefer that you not eat that way whenever we're eating together, because that's uncomfortable for me.

Um, and I would like to eat with someone who eats more slowly. Yeah.

Just, there's this weird part of me that wants to. It doesn't feel right because I, I agree with you on one hand, but there's something in my body that's telling me that it's not right. To tell your partner that I don't agree with how you're eating.

Like, I, I don't know. It doesn't that feel weird to you? Like it feels weird. Like, it's almost like saying I don't agree with how you walk. Like, like, wait, what do you mean? Like, you can't just say that you don't like, I don't know. What, what do you think about that?

That's what makes intimate relationships so difficult is because there's literally no other person in the world whose style of eating affects me other than the person I live with.

And so, you know, if you are gonna be my life partner, we're gonna be eating together for the next 20 years. Yeah. The way you eat is important to me. And, and it is weird, but there's so much that's weird about marriage. You know, the way you sleep matters to me, the way you smell matters to me, um, especially the way you manage your money.

That matters a lot to me. And whereas all of the other, you know, 8 billion people in the world honestly get to do whatever they want. Well, and you get to do whatever you want too, but. The things you do affect me significantly. Um, doesn't mean you don't have a choice, but it's just important for me to kind of be honest with you that, you know, this has a real impact on me.

And I, I can pretend it doesn't, but that's never gonna work out in the long run. Right? And really the only solution is just say, Hey, this is my preference. Realizing that in the end, you get to choose how you eat. I don't get to choose that for you. And that's, that's the key point, is. I will still treat you well if you choose to continue eating this way.

That's so important,

right? Yeah. Just that unconditional love and support you, you know, it's not conditional of whether, how he eats. You still have a right to say that it affects you. Mm-Hmm. But it doesn't mean that you're gonna withdraw your love. Right? Another thing I like to say with my couples is, um, everything you do affects your partner.

And I always get pushback on that. They're like, really everything, like what I choose to go eat for lunch during my workday doesn't affect my partner. And I always say like, yes it does. If you eat a bunch of beans and you go home at night and at nighttime, you're, you're, you're bombing up the bed.

I'm married to a woman who can't stand the smell of garlic.

And so what you're saying, what you're saying is so true to me, and this is, you know. I love garlic, but I also eat very little of it because I guess you could say I don't love garlic as much as I love my wife, and it's really just, it's just not that big of a sacrifice to me because it really affects her.

She has this incredibly sensitive nose and the smell of garlic is highly offensive to her, and, um, she's not mean about it. But it really does affect her. And so like when she goes away for a week, oh man, the garlic comes out like, like it is party time. We're having garlic bread and garlic toast and garlic fries and, and, and it's delicious.

And then, you know, a couple days before she comes back, the garlic goes back away and it's just, it's just part of being in a marriage is making room for the other person. Yeah. And, and if, if she was like making a dozen unreasonable requests, then that would be different. But she's not, you know, she's not like intentionally trying to cramp my style or saying, I can't eat this, I can't eat that.

Right. It's just a reasonable accommodation.

Yep. And, and if you think it's unreasonable, like for example, if this guy were to think that what she's asking about how he eats is unreasonable. That's fine. That's, that's your choice. You get to decide what you think you want is acceptable to you in a marriage.

If you, but then that means that you may not be married.

Mm-Hmm.

So you have to make that decision. Yeah, absolutely. What's important to you.

Right. And, and if I did, like if I do decide to eat garlic, um, you know, then it's important for me. So I make the decision to eat garlic and, and she probably is not gonna kiss me for a couple days.

And that's also reasonable. It's just. It just kind of makes sense. And so me to say, well, you have to kiss me even though ate garlic. I mean, come on. Like, like, you just need to be real about these things. Yeah. Um, and, and the core principle here is that if I can hold her in my heart in a loving way, then I'm gonna be able to work these things out.

And if I'm seeing her as, you know, ants at my picnic, or an annoyance or an obstacle, then I'm not gonna work anything out. Everything's gonna be, you know, every single molehill is becoming a mountain.

Yeah. The last thing I wanted to talk about with, with this post was the fact that she posted this on, am I the asshole thread?

Yeah. And I think it's really significant because the whole premise, there's a, there, there's a two sides to the same coin here. When, when you post something on this thread, one side is there's a level of curiosity. I mean, you're asking the question, right? There's a level of like. Am I like, you know what I mean?

There's also a level of ego. There's a level of, I don't think I did anything wrong. And you're looking for that validation on both sides of the coin, right? You're looking to see, look, I'm such a curious person. I'm not the asshole. I'm, I'm good. And there's this ego on the other side saying, I'm right. See, look, I'm not the asshole.

And, and you, you're setting up the question in a way that you're gonna win on both sides. And again, it just feeds into this idea that you're not thinking relationally when your partner withdraws after you said something at dinner and you're going and, and you're noticing that they're really, really upset, the first question shouldn't be, I don't think what I did was wrong.

Am I the asshole? The first question should be. Man, my partner is really upset. I don't like that. Whatever happens, this was the result and I don't like it and I want to go fix that and repair that regardless of whether I think that I'm the asshole or not. Okay. If I think that I'm righteous on top of righteous Hill, that's fine, but that's not thinking relationally.

Go redo the repair work. That was my thought, but I don't know what you think.

Yeah, I think that, I mean, first of all, this kind of assumption that there's only one asshole is always wrong, you know? Right. And, and second, you know, I mean, if I treat my wife poorly, there's a really good chance she's gonna treat me poorly back. And, and maybe she goes first, maybe I go first. It doesn't really matter.

Uh, it's always my responsibility to treat her well, kind of no matter what. Like, there's never an excuse for, you know, adults to just be like treating each other like children. So. Yeah, I think that. We have more power, kind of in tune with what you were saying. We have so much more power to improve our relationships unilaterally than we want to admit.

We always wanna say, oh, I'm a poor, innocent victim. I can't do anything about it. You know, this horrible person is just mistreating me. And, and there was some truth to that for a lot of us when we were five years old. You know, there was some truth to that where, where you didn't have much power and you probably were mistreated.

I mean, we all were, to a certain extent. I mean, kids are, it's hard to take really good care of a kid and so. In adult relationships, we just want to pretend that we have like 10% of the power we actually have, where I really do have the option to treat my wife really well all the time. That is a choice available to me.

Now, maybe I don't have the emotional maturity to do that, but I have the choice to go try and develop that emotional maturity and, and I'm gonna say, well, she has to go first. She blah, blah. You know, all the things. But in the end. I have choices, I have options, I have resources. I can learn to be a better husband, and that's what I can do to make my marriage better.

Yep. And this is, I mean, it's such an opportunity here too, to really lean into your, your couple values and your family values at this point, right? Like the value of I commit to a no yelling household. I commit to never calling you names. I commit to, you know, the things that you say you commit to when you marry somebody, you know, step up.

These are the moments that they say when marriage is hard, these are the moments that you need to step up and, and be able to do that repair work. Um, so it, it's inspiring. It's a great opportunity. Um, I don't think she's the asshole, but, um, I think there's, uh, there's definitely some work on both of them to be done.

And there's always this opportunity where, I mean, she definitely got defensive in that situation. Like there's no way. Um, and, and unless she, yeah, there's no way, you know, just the way she, the fact that it was important enough to her to go and write about it on Reddit means that there was an emotional charge.

And so when I bring a negative emotional charge to my wife, that's something for me to apologize for. It really is because, um. I don't want to be the kind of husband who brings these negative emotional charges to my wife. It doesn't mean I'm not gonna confront her about things. That's really important.

I'm gonna step into like this collaborative conflict, but I can come to my wife and say, Hey, this is what I see you doing and this is what I want you to do. And I can do that with just like pure love in my heart and that's the solution. Um, and so, you know, I don't think that's what she did. And that means that she has this opportunity now that he's stonewalling all this stuff, she has an opportunity.

Go and apologize for her part in it. Um, and confront Tim about his part in it and, or you don't have to do both. At least apologize for your part. If you want to go the extra mile, say, um, you know, I think that you are withdrawing your love and affection from me to punish me for what I did. Yeah, you can say that.

And, uh, it's not necessarily going to change his behavior, but that's not the point. The point is. You know, am I doing what I can to take really good care of myself and the relationship? And by stepping into that kind of conflict, you can avoid falling into like a reasonable accommodation trap where you're like, well, he won't talk to me.

There's nothing I can do about it, so I'm just gonna hate him silently, you know, for the rest of the week or whatever. So that's like, that's what you avoid by, I always tell couples to step into more conflict and not less, because most couples have not even close to enough conflict in their relationship.

It's the avoidance is what's killing them.

Sure. Yeah, usually there's two sides to that coin that some people are wanting to stir up all the conflict and they, the person's trying to quell it and s you know, stomp it out.

Yeah. Sometimes there, there, there often is that, that pursuer distance or dynamic where someone's trying to bring things up.

Often the person who's trying to bring things up is trying to bring up the wrong things though. So it really does matter what you argue about. Um, so like once she already brought up his eating thing, you know, that. We just, we think these things take like 30 minutes to talk about. They don't, they take 30 seconds, you know, Hey, I want you to eat slower.

That's literally the end of, that's the whole thing. Like, there's nothing else to say. Um, I want you to not stonewall me also into that. You know, there's just nothing else to say. You don't need to justify, you don't need to qualify it, you don't need to explain it. It's like, I'm a person. I'm your person.

Uh, I, I want to matter to you and I want you to care about what I want, and this is what I want. Um, and you get to say no, but I'm not gonna pretend that I don't want what I want. And like, like in my relationship, you know, I don't ever want to be stonewalled, you know, and obviously it's going to happen sometimes, but when it happens, it's important for me to say, Hey, I noticed, you know, you haven't talked to me or touched me for the last 24 hours.

Um. I just want to like, bring that onto the light and just say, Hey, this is what's happening right now. Yeah. This is what's happening in our marriage right now. And I know you have your reasons. Um, and hopefully I already apologize for whatever my role in this was. Right. But, but it's important to face the reality of like, this is what's going on right now.

Right.

So I'm wondering can we, can we role play that out with you asking her or you being her and asking me, I want you to eat slower, period.

Yeah. Okay. So let's, let's say this is like, um, let's say this is the next day and, and you're stonewalling. And, uh, so Chad, I want to talk to you about what happened in the restaurant last night.

Yeah, I, I wanna talk about it too. This is, uh, kinda bugging me.

Okay, so first off, I got really defensive and I treated you poorly, and I'm really sorry for that. That's not the kind of person I want to be. And I know that I made it hard for you to be there with me because I was angry and upset and I felt embarrassed, and, um, that's all on me.

So I want to just let you know that I'm really sorry for how I handled the incident.

I mean, I, I appreciate you saying you're sorry. I, I don't know if you know why you're sorry, because I think you're sorry for me not talking to you. Um. You're sorry because, and I don't, I don't know what you mean by defensive.

Um, you were attacking, you basically insulted me and that was kind of hurtful.

Yeah, I, I agree that I treated you poorly and so what I'm apologizing for is that I got emotional. I got defensive. Um, and so yeah, I did lash out at you and I, and I, and I embarrass you in the restaurant. And I am sorry for that.

Um, I, I'm not saying that I'm sorry for you stonewalling. I'm saying that I'm sorry for what I did. Yeah.

I mean, I appreciate that. I guess this is the only time you've criticized me though, about my eating and I, I don't understand why that you, you're, uh, you're getting frustrated about the way that I eat.

Well, there's kind of two things. First is that I, I do have a preference for you to eat slower, right? And so, so me getting upset about it is on me. Um. But I do want to make it clear that, uh, it's really uncomfortable for me when, when you eat very quickly, especially when I'm out in public, I know you do it at home too, that bothers me less.

But I would still prefer that you eat more slowly, even when it's just us.

W why though? Why, why do you care about how fast I eat?

Um, why does that bother you?

That's a really good question. So, so when we were out last night, I was concerned about what everyone else was thinking about us. So, so I was worried about everyone else kind of judging us because of the way you were eating. You were eating very quickly. Like, I mean, if I looked around the restaurant, no one else was eating that way.

So, uh, there's just like an expectation in society that you eat a certain way and you were violating that expectation as, as to why it bothers me so much. I. Um, I really don't know. Um, I obviously, you know, I want to not be so fragile around this and to be able to handle it better. Um, but it does bother me e even if it didn't bother me, like, you know, we had this, this spinach dip and you ate about 80% of it, and, and by the time I got to the point where I was gonna have my third bite, it was all gone.

Yeah. That part I do recognize and I don't want, you know, I wanna make sure that I'm not eating the whole plate. That's. That's not fair to you. The other part of, though, as far as the embarrassment, I mean, I don't know. I wanna, there's a part of me that wants to argue back with you, like, who cares what other people think?

You know what I mean? Like, I, you know, other people can be judgmental of how I eat to forever. If it's not judging me how I eat, it's gonna be judging what I wear. It's gonna be judging something. And for us, I don't want us to, to, to, to mold our behaviors or ways that we do things because of what other people are doing.

Or what people are thinking. I want us to be a unit and we're strong and we decide what we want to do as a couple. Um, I understand, you know, image does play a part in some things, whether it be in business, whether it be in whatever, you know, um, neighbor relationships. But, um, you know, I, I, I don't want to me eat less because I don't want to be embarrassed by other people that that's not something that's a value of mine.

That's where I'm seeing a little bit of my frustration coming from is that you're placing a big value on how other people look at us, and that's not a value of mine. If you were gonna say something like, the reason why I want you to eat slower is because I wanna enjoy the meal with you. When you eat super, super fast, it doesn't feel like you can slow down with me.

It doesn't feel like you're present with me. That's something that I can get behind because I care about presence with you. I care about our commitment to, you know, sharing a meal together and breaking bread. I don't care about what other people think about me

and I, and I, I guess it's surprising to hear that you. I, I didn't, I didn't know that that was a, that was a big deal for you and I'm, I'm feeling that maybe we have differences in values that we could, we could talk through.

Yeah, I think that's part of it. And uh, also, you know, I have a pretty strong preference for you to eat more slowly when we're just eating at home too.

So it would be much more comfortable, like, you know, if we have dinner together at home, I would love for us to both kind of eat at the same rate. You know, just kind of like a more gradual pace. There's honestly, there's probably something going on where I'm probably judging you in your mind for eating too fast in my mind.

Like, and that's, there's stuff for me to look at there. Um.

Because that's what, that's what it felt like to me. It felt like you were judging me for me eating fast because of the people who were looking at us. And that's what was so hurtful.

Yeah. No,

that you're right. That's

what happened. Yeah. And I'm sorry for that.

Yeah. So, um, you know, separate from that, it's, it's hard for me to, it's hard for me to imagine. I don't think that I'm ever going to reach this place where I'm going to, you know. I just don't think I'm gonna be ever totally okay with you. Eating as quickly as you ate last night, like that seems pretty unrealistic to me.

And I definitely want to be more kind about it, but I don't think I'll ever agree with it.

Yeah, and that if that's something that is really, really important to you because of a shared value of art, like I said, we wanna make sure that we're eating bread together, that we're experiencing the meal together.

We don't get that many times to go out on dates on Friday nights. I, I get that right. But what I don't want to have happen is the reason why you want me to slow down is because of what other people are saying. That's, that's not something I'm gonna get behind. Um, and I'm, I'm really glad that we talked this through because like, you know, there's other instances where I do feel like you're judging me because of other people's view of me.

Right. And, and I don't, I guess I don't, I don't want that to happen, right? If it's something that when it comes to us and our family and it's affecting us. I am all ears. A hundred percent. And you're right, I shouldn't be eating that fast when I'm out to dinner with you because I, I wanna spend the time with you and I, I, I'm focusing more on the food than us coning a conversation that's not okay.

But, um, but I'm glad that you brought it to my attention like this, and I, and I really hear you.

It's very generous of you. Thank you. Yeah. Man, we're such a great couple.

I mean, obviously we're, you know, we're, we're roleplaying, but like, I mean, man, how amazing would the world be if, if couples were able to do that?

We'll get it there. Yeah. No, that was awesome. Yeah, that was actually really fun. That was great. Roleplay. Yeah, that really is how it's done. Uh, it's hard because none of us really saw our parents do that. Yeah. And so, you know, we all step into marriage and we're like, we know how to do the thing. And it turns out we don't know how to do the thing.

I, we can learn.

But I have people tell me all the time, like, the way you talk when you go into those role plays, Chad, like, I'll be honest with you, like I've had, I've had a man say this to me. He, it sounds whack. And I was like, what do you mean by whack? And I, you know, he was like, people don't talk like that.

And I was like, imagine if they did.

It's

true.

I didn't know you did role plays like that.

Oh, I do role plays like this all the time with my class. Okay. This

is fantastic. I do role plays all the time too. Yeah.

Oh yeah.

I've, I've been playing with this, so I go to dance, my wife and I go to dance class, dance lessons every, every Friday, and I was just, it just hit me the other day how I.

Couples therapy is a lot like a dance lesson where the goal is to be dancing better at the end of the session than you were dancing in the beginning. And I was like, this is just so useful for me as a therapist. I'm like, if I look at how you're managing conflict at the beginning of the session and how you're managing the end, I want there to be a difference there.

Like there needs to be progression during the session. 'cause otherwise what are we doing? You know? Yeah. If, if you're not getting better at managing conflict during a marriage therapy session, how can I expect you to get better at doing it in between sessions? So, so I, I've just been thinking about it a lot and I started out in marriage being a really bad dancer, and my wife was a pretty good dancer.

And so we've been going to dance class for like. Several months now, and I'm almost getting to the point where I can almost call myself a dancer and it's actually really cool, but, but I'm relying on, you know, professional instruction to get there. It would be really hard, like I could go on YouTube and teach myself how to dance and that'd be so hard.

It's so much easier just to have a professional there. He's so good. And he'll look at me and he'd be like. This is what you're doing wrong. He'll just show me and he'll like, move my elbow or something. And for me to like figure that out from YouTube would be like 10 times harder. And so it just really makes me appreciate the role of a skilled professional, let's say this is what you're doing and this is what you want to do and this is how you change.

Um, and that's kind of how I see my role as a couples therapist. You're making my point for in-person therapy too. I mean.

Cool.

But I mean, yeah, you can do a lot of work on, on video, but yeah, I mean, in person it just, there's a different feel for sure. There is. There is a difference. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for having me and going over this. Yeah.

Should we wrap it up there? This was a great conversation.

Yeah, this was great.

We'll do this again. Yeah. All right. Take care.

Okay.