17. Improve Your Functioning
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James Christensen: https://jamesmchristensen.com
Catherine Roebuck: https://catroebuck.com
James: So if I improved my functioning significantly, how would, you know? So like, say you and I meet up a year from now and you're like, wow, James, your functioning is way up. But what would tell you that?
Catherine: I mean, this has pretty much happened in the last year. It, it has.
James: Yeah. So what's changed?
Catherine: I know I, I had gone about six months without seeing you, and I was surprised. So there was a kind of a way you were just at peace with yourself, just more relaxed in your own skin. Warmer. Happier, um,
James: Less guarded.
Catherine: I mean, so I, I do think about it as like a shift into more contact with being a creature.
James: I love that you keep using that word. That's such a beautiful word.
Catherine: And, and for me that's very tied to the senses. Like there we talk all the time about being present. There's all of this advice on how to be present and that that's how you improve your mental health and enjoy your life and all those things. But like how you actually do that is primarily through the senses because sensory data exists in the present moment. And so anytime you're connected with several senses, you're present. It is one of the best ways to do that, in my view. And I see that as like one of the indicators of good function is, is the capacity to be present and not have to distract from what's happening right now and who you're with right now.
James: Is that the same as making contact?
Catherine: Yeah, I do think that's the same. Yeah. Brains thrive on reality. Like even a difficult reality, it's still better for your brain to have awareness and contact with what's really happening.
James: And when I'm present, I'm not solving any problems or I'm not, at least I'm not focusing my attention on the solving some sort of abstract problem.
Catherine: Hmm. Well, you could be present with what you're actually doing right now that relates to a problem in your life. Um, you're cleaning your kitchen and you're present with yourself as you're doing it, and you're, and you're washing dishes and you're feeling the water, and you're listening to the sounds. Uh, you are, I suppose, solving the problem of the kitchen, being dirty.
James: So you can wash dishes two way though. I can, I can wash dishes without being present and I can wash dishes while I'm in my head solving a problem. That's not the dishes.
Catherine: Yeah. And I think what you're talking about is mostly people ruminating.
James: I am talking about that.
Catherine: Yeah. Where we, we worry about a problem, but we're not doing anything in real time about it.
James: Right. We think of it as solving a problem, but it's, it's thinking about things. Alright. So the way we actually solve problems and the way we think we solve problems are quite different. And so, you know, this corresponds to left brain and right brain. But most problems are actually solved by the right brain because most problems are much too complex for the left brain.
Catherine: And the right brain processes most sensory data right?
James: Brain processes, the sensory data and the right brain puts together thousands of different inputs and comes to an intuitive conclusion. Instantaneous, intuitive. It just gets things, the left brain is step by step, methodical, mechanical. Uh, very focused on cause and effect. The right brain doesn't think in cause and effect. The right brain thinks in a hundred different inputs coming together in, in an intuitive way, a way that we can just get, uh, and when we solve difficult problems in our lives, it's always with the right brain. The left brain is for solving simple problems. Problems. Relatively simple problems. So I have a mechanical problem in my life. You know, like I have been a, a mountain biker my whole life and I've spent hundreds of hours fixing mountain bikes. That's a very left brain thing because it's step by step. It's methodical. It's a relatively simple machine. Uh, something like Einstein coming up with Ethereums, that would be a more right brain process because he's intuiting something. He's imagining something new. That's a right brain process.
Catherine: So you're saying it's the right brain that solves problems.
James: Everything, but the simplest of problems in life. So all relationship problems would be solved by the right brain.
Catherine: And the right brain can kind of delegate aspects of that to the left brain.
James: It does all the time. Yeah. So, so the right brain can't follow a checklist. The left brain can. Yeah. And the right brain can't, uh, any step by step. Like the right brain can't even use language very well because it, it just doesn't think word by word by word. That's a left brain thing. So if I'm gonna string 20 words into a sentence, the left brain has to actually put those words, but the left brain doesn't know what the sentence really means. So the knowing what the sentence means is a right brain function. Actually saying the sentence informing the grammar is a left brain function.
Catherine: It's a little bit like the difference between an impression of someone based off of a resume or a dating at profile. And an impression of someone based on a face-to-face conversation with them. Yeah. A direct meeting.
James: Yeah. Mcg Kos tells a story of a man who made his living as a, uh, he, he, his first career, he had been a horse trainer, so he trained race, race, horse. And he raised racehorses and he cared for racehorse. So he had decades of experience with racehorses. And then he retired and, um, someone hired him to evaluate the, the horses at the track and say which horse would, would, would run. And he kept, he, he was very interested in how he did this 'cause he didn't know. He would go and they, they go out and they walk the horses from like the, the holding pin to the track. And he would just watch each horse and he would have a sense of what the percentage of that horse was gonna run, how fast that horse is gonna run based on how it's. How the horse is walking. But he couldn't tell you why. And he, uh, and so, and he went and read McGilchrist book trying to understand what was happening because he's getting this intuitive sense, this horse is looking good, this horse is looking bad. Yeah. And he couldn't tell anyone why. And if he tried to explain why, so, so he, he, he really wanted to, he wanted to know why. And so he would, some days he would go down and he would have his initial impression. Then maybe say, okay, but it's because of this, this, this, and this. And when he did that, his predictions were worse. Because he tracked his prediction. I mean, he tracked his predictions. You know, for years and years and years. So he had all this records of how well he performed and, and what kind of effort went in. And his best performance was always when he put zero effort, he just watched the horse. Yeah. And zero effort, zero methods, no checklist, no procedure. Just watch the horse, how fast it's gonna go. It's gonna go fast. It's not gonna go fast. And it's an instantaneous realization.
Catherine: Yeah. I, I think that has to come off of subtle sensory cues. You know, he's, he's in close contact with the horse. And he is picking up on something. Um, there is data feeding into that. Intuitive sense, but it's, it's not verbal. It's not something that could be broken down into a checklist. And I think usually what we're talking about when we're talking about intuition or gut sense is, is that like there is something that we're tracking, um, but we don't have words for it. We don't have a good way to do it. Uh, and we don't have words for it.
James: because the left brain is the word brain and the left brain doesn't understand it. And so we have to have two brains because we have to be able to understand these incredibly complex things. And in modern society, we have to be able to function in a mechanical age. And words are incredibly important. You know, our society's been based on words for thousands of years now. And so we have to be able to do language and words and all the technology that's come since it. But it's not the foundation of intelligence or functioning.
Catherine: Yeah. I think there's always more in like a, a conversation. So if we took everything we're saying now and we just wrote it out and all people had was words on a page, they'd have less. Because there's more going into what we're transmitting or communicating than just the words. And, and it's subtle stuff. It's just things that you can sense through listening about, you know, the qualities that come through in someone's voice. Um, but that, that's part of contact and in my view is like you wanna involve more of the senses. If you want closer contact with somebody. So you're gonna get closer if you are talking than if you are just texting. And you're gonna get, get even closer if you've got video and even closer if you're face to face. And so when you're really trying to get close to someone or understand someone, um, all of those different sensory inputs help.
James: My, uh, my son just came back from backpacking in Europe, in Asia. He's gone for six months. And, uh, when he came in the door, my cat was scared. So this used to be like his cat, basically. Like this cat loved it, loved his boy. And, and, uh, but you know, the cat didn't recognize him visually, so, so my son comes in the door, the cat's like skittish and runs halfway up the stairs. And my son went over to the stairs and just put out his hand and the cat sniffs his hand and then he just rubbed up against him. Oh, yeah. But this is sensory data, you know, for, for a cat smell is the primary indication of who this person is. Right. And so when he smelled my son, he's like, oh, yes, I do know this person. But just seeing him, he didn't recognize him. For, for humans, I think we do recognize people based more on sight, but for me to make contact with you, I have to allow myself to be present enough to really focus on what is happening right now as opposed to being up in my head thinking about things that are more than just what's happening right now.
Catherine: Yeah. One of the ways that I make that shift is I'll run through the senses and be like, what can I see right now? What can I hear? Um, I, I've heard different tools around this where people be like, five things you see for these, that's too complex for me. I just run through the senses. I just do one thing for each, but it just, I'm just trying to tune in with like the intensity of right here, right now. And I think it is the intensity of it that gets us to abandon it. And go into the much more comfortable space of just thinking and ruminating and not actually living our life in real time.
James: Part of being present and part of making contact is me paying attention to what impact I'm having. You part of making contact and part of me present is me paying attention to the impact I'm having on you. Yeah. And caring about the impact I'm having on you. So if I'm not making good contact with you, then I might be saying something that's not of interest to you and I'll just keep saying it. And so I will just kind of keep rambling on this topic that maybe is of interest to me, but it doesn't really make very much sense for me to be talking to you without caring about what impact am I having on you.
Catherine: Well, why do you think you'd be doing that? What would be the drive behind it?
James: So sometimes I just have this desire to share what's in my head with someone. It's like. This thing is really important to me and I want it to be important to you, and it usually isn't. So I have these like obsessions with certain things. And I will very often, if I think of something that I have an obsession with, I will want to share it with someone and I want someone else to be as excited. It's like, I think I'm seeking kind of validation. That the thing that is really important to me is also really important to you. Uh, realistically, the things I'm obsessed with, like, I'm obsessed with solar power. I always have been like, for, for decades, and. No one else cares about solar power. Like there very few people in the world who care about it the way I do, and, uh, I have this gadget on my house that measures my solar power output, and I look at it multiple times a day, every day, even though it's the same every day. Like it doesn't really change. Like I live in California, the sun comes up, there's no clouds, like it's exactly the same every day. And like I can tell you exactly how many watts my house is producing right now. Yeah. I still go look just in case, you know, And so, uh, it's just, it's just this obsession. But I would love for other people to care about that the way I do. And so sometimes, you know, it would be in my head and I'll be like. Because it's so interesting to me. I'll think like, oh, this person will surely be interested in that, but they're not.
Catherine: Yeah. It's so, it seems to be like when we're overly invested in other people sharing our view or our interests or that, that's when it's easy to communicate without any contact.
James: Yeah, and it's. I mean, the, a side of good brain functioning is how much do I care about other people? And the way I talk to someone really demonstrates that. So if I care a lot about you, I am going to care a lot about what impact to my words have on you. And, uh, one thing that happens is, you know, if I'm talking to someone about solar power for a long time and I can, you know, and they're not interested, people will always give subtle cues to not being interested. They might be pretending to be interested, but. But if I'm really paying attention, I'll know they're not interested. And, and at that point it becomes a question of how much do I care about this person? I think most conversation between people, I think there's a pretty, usually most conversations, there's a pretty big disconnect where a lot of people are pretending to care more than they really care. And the other person is pretending not to know that, or, or maybe really not noticing, but. The validation I'm getting, even though it's mostly false validation is still so delicious that I'm, I'm willing to just pass it on.
Catherine: And I think if you want, if, if you want to have traction with someone, you wanna have a chance at getting them interested in something they're not already interested in, or, uh, influencing how they think in some way without, um. Just putting pressure on them somehow. Then you have to be able to both track your impact on them, like track how they really feel about the conversation, and also have enough calm and steadiness in yourself to slow yourself down and to not go faster than they'll go with you, which is hard.
James: It's so hard. Yeah. Yeah,
Catherine: but I think that's one of the main ways that people drop contact is that they go too fast.
James: Oh, gosh. So for you and I, we've spent thousands of hours talking about these subjects and we know them so well and we're so passionate. It's like our solar power thing. Yeah, exactly. Like we have this obsession with this and, and so it really is difficult to. Uh, to stay with someone else who's learning about the science of relationships and, and maybe has not spent thousands of hours in their life, you know, obsessively thinking about what does it take to have a good relationship and what does it take to build a good relationship?
Catherine: Right. No, I, I have experiences where I can tell I'm losing somebody that, you know, they might think it sounds interesting, but they're not really following it. Um, and it, it usually means I need to slow down. But that's one of the things I push myself on in relationships is like, no matter how important something is to me, I can't go faster than my ability to calm myself down in trying to change it or I won't get anywhere. It's always. Self-sabotage, counterproductive to do that. And so like an example, my kids are both pretty picky eaters and I want them to eat a wider variety of foods. And I can't go any faster on that than my ability to regulate my own emotions about it. Uh, or I will get nowhere. And that's been frustrating to me because it's felt like. There's a clock. You know, I'm, I'm raising kids. They're growing, they need nutrition. Um, I feel all this pressure as a parent that I'm supposed to be doing a better job at this than I am, and I'm supposed to have it figured out. And every time I try to move them along faster, it backfires and we end up in like a power struggle. But I've found if I can really only move at the pace where I'm calm about it and I can um, talk to them from like a calm place and let them know that I care and why I care, but not be trying to like coerce them. They're willing to try more things. They're willing to move on this a little. They're just not, you know, they can't move faster than their nervous system can handle. And I can't move faster than my nervous system can handle. And that's the challenge I think in relationships is that we end up, we really want something. It's really important. Yeah. And we think the other person is the reason that it we're not getting it and the change in the happening faster. But usually there's real difficulty on both sides with going any faster.
James: It's almost like there's two signals. There's the one signal is this person wants something from me and the other person is this person cares about me. And the cares about signal has to be stronger for movement to happen. 'cause if they want something from me, signal is stronger, then I'm gonna push against that. Right? 'cause now you're threatening my autonomy. Right. If you care about me to the extent that I know you care about me, I know you would never threaten my autonomy. And so if I can launch, if I can latch onto that signal, then you know, I, my mind is still open to changing something, even if it's difficult. But if the signal I'm picking up is you want something from me, then I'm just gonna defend myself and push against that signal.
Catherine: right? Yeah. So. It's much easier to trust somebody that is in contact with reality themselves. Um, and is working off of real time data. And not just up in their head with a bunch of abstract ideas.
James: Yeah, I think so.
Catherine: So one dynamic I see play out about a lot is there's one person who's kind of dragging. And, you know, trying to pull their partner into change or something. And then there's the other other person is resisting and the person who's putting a lot of overt pressure or pulling, they will feel like this other person is slowing me down. Uh, you know, I would change so much faster if they would get on board, but it's like the person who feels out front can't calm themselves down enough. To deal with the reality of the partner doesn't wanna change and they don't have to change, and instead they keep trying to change reality. So it's like they're not doing any better at moving themselves closer to what they want than the partner who's resisting thing.
James: So David Shart said that those who can't control themselves control the people, which is what you're talking about. Right. But, uh, you could also say that those who don't control themselves try to control reality instead. Right? So instead of focusing my effort on changing me, I'm, I'm focusing my effort on trying to change the environment I'm in or trying to change the people. Yes. Uh, I mean, I, I've talked about this or trying to change the people I'm with. I've talked about sometimes as you can try to modify your environment to suit your needs, or you can try to modify yourself to suit your environment. That's not the best way. You can try to, you can try to fight. You know, humans have a tendency, like we're, we're sitting here in a house in the woods. We, we have do this thing where we modify the environment to suit our needs. Sure. So we're dry. It's 70 degrees. We have food in the refrigerator. There's no bears in there. There's no bears. And so we're really good at modifying your environment. Uh, there's certain parts of the environment that will refuse to be modified. Uh, like a partner, a a, the weather, the weather will not be modified. Yes. We can't do anything about that. You can rage at the storms all day, but that won't help. And the other thing that won't be modified is my wife refuses to be modified. Yeah. So, so if I try to take direct action and, you know, modify her in the way, I would like be able to fire or build a a, a shelter or put up a tent or dig a ditch. These are things that I can go and I can take direct action on an inanimate object or an inanimate world, but when I try to take that same uh, kind of direct action on Anate person, on a living person, they will push back.
Catherine: Unless it's yourself, that's the only animate person you can do this with directly. But I mean, I'd propose as a scale of brain function you could have from one to 10, where one is I act on everything I can't control. I try to manipulate every factor I don't have direct control of. That's your functioning very poorly. You're trying to control everybody else and everything else, all the way to 10, which is I do everything in my power about my situation. Which is gonna mean like, I'm exercising a lot of influence over myself. That's, and my focus is on what I can actually do and
James: Yeah. And by being a better person, you do have a lot of influence in the world. Yeah. So, so you and I are surrounded by people who actually do care about us. And, uh, to the extent that someone cares about me. I really have a lot of power in that situation. It's not just that, that these people care about us, it's like we're surrounded by people with whom we have significant emotional connection. And so that means that this person is responding, uh, to the energy I'm bringing into the relationship. And so, like with my wife, she responds to the energy I bring. So, so if I went up to our room right now and I was upset and anxious, she would also start to feel anxiety and I would've. Directly created that change in her, you know? Yeah. So people will often say, well, I have no power in my relationship. I think you're the one who told me this. Actually, people have no power in. They say, I have no power in my relationship, but I think you are the one who said, well, can you make your wife angry or Can you make your partner angry? And, and the answer is always yes. And so, if I can make my wife angry, if I can push her buttons, I also have power in the opposite direction. I don't think it's quite as explicit.
Catherine: Yeah. But we act like we only know how to push the, the buttons that set someone off, and we have no idea what would calm them down or make them feel better. Sure. You know, and we live with this person. Yeah. But we only have data about how to set them off, you know?
James: But I think there's some truth to that. I think there's some truth to that where it, you know, I think that we do have more instincts, like a, a baby gets taken care of by causing emotional distress in the parent.
Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, okay. It's more intuitive and it's easier. Sure. It's more intuitive and it's instinctive.
James: It is. Like, and I think to do the opposite, for me to live in a way that makes my wife, that makes my wife's life easy is actually challenging and difficult. And it requires growth and it requires good function.
Catherine: Well, okay, so now you're hitting on another aspect of this, which is that brain function is contagious.
James: It really Oh, so contagious.
Catherine: And so, um. It's hard on your brain to be around someone that is not functioning well. It's hard on other people's brains to be around you when you're not functioning well and there's stuff you can do. It's not like you're, it's not like the answer here is to isolate yourself from all poor functioning brains. Like you'll just be alone in life. Um, but there's ways you can take care of yourself even when you're around people that aren't doing well. But especially in a family brain function is contagious in a family system. And so you can bring contagious chaos or contagious calm to your family system, to your marriage or your family. And it doesn't, uh, negate that everyone's got a choice. Um, and you can bring a lot of goodness into a situation and have someone still not engage with it. But. That's where I always come back to this idea of inviting, like what are you inviting? And the way, like what you were describing, if you walk up to your room where your wife is and you're really upset and anxious, uh, are you inviting her into anxiety? Uh, and a lot of people. Absolutely. That's what, yeah. Yeah.
James: Well, it comes back, you said we're herd animals. So if you look at a group, I mean, we've all watched these nature shows and there's. You know, 45 antelope on the serenity Savannah. And they're all grazing. And then one sees a lion. Yeah. And all of the antelope are instantly anxious.
Catherine: Yeah. And it happens
James: in a foot second. And that's how we operate.
Catherine: Right, right. And it's not, they didn't all see the lion.
James: They did not. But they know something's up and they, they track. We're wired, we're connected that way. And we have ways of sharing anxiety with each other. And it's not just that the anxiety happens. It's like when I'm anxious, I want you to also be anxious. It bothers me. If I am living in a world where I sense danger and you're like, ah, everything's fine. That's irritating to me. And my instinct is going to be to do something to get you to be just as anxious as that.
Catherine: Well, it makes you, it kind of leaves you alone with the, A threat is the, yeah. The feeling of it is like, if I can't get everyone else to feel threatened by this too, then I'm alone and facing it, I think is part of why. But part of the, like the contagiousness of this especially affects children
James: so much, especially from a parent.
Catherine: Yes. And so when you've got anxious kids, uh, or kids that are not doing well emotionally or socially, like typically there, there can be multiple factors here, but typically one of the factors is they're picking up on their parents' tension and anxiety at home.
James: It's so common
Catherine: and so when you know when my kids are doing worse, it's almost always a reflection that I'm doing worse. And that I've gotta resource myself better and take better care of myself if I want them to do any better. And the thing that parents wanna be true, that in my view just doesn't work, is that you could just, um, hand the kids off for treatment. You know, get the kids into therapy, not have to deal with the family system and have the kids get better.
James: But it, it can help. I'm not opposed to therapy for kids or teens. It really does help. It's just not the core problem.
Catherine: Right. The, the kids, I think overall kids benefit more from their parents doing therapy than from the child doing therapy in general. I agree that they, they need to see their parents calm down and be kinder. Um, and that's what's gonna make the biggest difference. Yeah. Which as a parent is pretty frustrating, you know, like to have that level of, of responsibility for a. Your kid's wellbeing, but I think that's just reality.
James: Oh, it's, yeah. No, I, I've thought about this quite a bit over the last year. The way I put it is that, uh, as a father, I do not get to blame my children for their immaturity. That's just not how it works. That it's not necessarily that it's all my fault. It's that, uh, my children's immaturity is much more a function of the problems that are present in the extended family system. Than it is of their own lack of personal development. Yeah. Now when someone's in their forties, that's much less true. Yeah. But, but for someone in their teens, for example, most of, most of their immaturity is, is just simply a function of the family system and they're just Yeah. Kind of manifesting what they've been handed
Catherine: there. Kids are gonna have a portion of their parents' emotional skillfulness. And, and that's both because they have less life experience because their brains are not fully developed. Um, like there's really legitimate, understandable reasons for that also, that they just have less autonomy in, in their lives. And so adults can change their circumstances a lot. You know, if adults don't wanna live in one house, they very often are able to live in a different house. If a kid doesn't wanna live in one house. It's up to their parents, you know, they don't get to choose. Um, a kid doesn't usually have control over very much in their life. And so kids, you know, on this, on this scale of like doing what you can about your, uh, influencing the things you can't control, trying, putting your energy toward the things you can't control versus putting your energy towards the things you can, like kids just have less on that side available to them. Um. Uh, but I think it's realistic. You know, if my kid is less than half my age and I'm expecting my kid to have more than half of my maturity, uh, that's not very fair.
James: But we do it all the time.
Catherine: Yes. Yeah. But I don't think it's realistic. I Shn says that by the time kids leave home, they're going to reach approximately the level of emotional development their parents are at. Yes. Um. Yeah, but that's, that's often what's hard in parent-child relationships is that we want the kid to do better because we can't handle things very well ourselves, and we know it.
James: It's so common if I am feeling anxious to blame my anxiety on someone else. Yeah. And especially if I'm anxious as a parent, if I don't feel okay as a parent, it's like, ah, it's your fault. Who? We blame it on our partners too.
Catherine: Yeah. So partners and brain function, you know, how are, how are people influencing each other on this?
James: I think, you know, the most powerful thing that I can do to help my partner grow is for me to grow.
Catherine: So. What did you say? You said anxiety is contagious or calm is contagious. Yeah. I think just emotional state and brain state are contagious too. Functioning is contagious. Yeah. Yeah. Functioning is contagious.
James: Yeah. I think you have to see it. So if I handle my relationship different, it really does put my wife in a different environment and, uh, it, it puts some pressure on her to handle things better. Yeah. So you use this word invite. When I show up in an immature way, I am inviting immaturity for my wife. I'm inviting and encouraging and feeding into immaturity for my wife. It, it's like a, it's like if I'm trying to, I often use the metaphor of the fire because if one log is burning, it goes out. Okay. If two logs are both burning, then they sustain each other. Uh, if I have a, a. A log that's on fire and I put a wet log next to it, then that hampers the fire and the other log, it doesn't encourage it. So when I am burning bright, I am encouraging my wife to burn bright, and when I am dimmed, then I'm encouraging my wife to be dim. That's not the best metaphor, but, but it really does work that way. And we consistently overestimate pe like it's so easy for me to overestimate my ability to change my wife's behavior through words. Which is very, very small. And wildly underestimate my ability to change my wife's behavior by changing my own behavior. Mm. It's much more powerful than, than using words.
Catherine: Yeah. And one of the things that's kind of unique about David NA's work is that he focuses on how sex impacts your brain. And so he's looking at like. The sexual relationship as a way that partners can either improve or harm their brain functioning. And there's a like heightened neuroplasticity when you're in a high arousal state. And so if you do something cruel in a sexual relationship or you do something very selfish, uh, you're gonna have an outsized. Impact on your partner. And, but similarly, if you do something kind, reparative, uh, invested, you'll have an outsized positive impact.
James: So everything we just said is even more impactful if it happens in sex,
Catherine: which is one of the reasons that partners have such an impact on each other's brains because they ' cause it's a sexual relationship, it's a sexual relationship, right. Right. And so that's like on, on one level, everybody can impact each other's functioning. Uh, anyone that you're close to you know that that can happen. But, but between partners there's a bigger impact. Yeah. Because it's a sexual relationship.
James: That's one of the reasons resentful sex is so harmful. So, yeah. Uh, you know, most relationships have a higher desire partner and a lower desire partner. And common dynamic is a lower desire partner has resentful sex with their partner because. They feel like they have to or feel like they should. And so I'm gonna have sex with you, but you know, in while I'm having sex with you, I'm thinking about how much I don't like this and I'm thinking about how much I don't like you. I'm thinking about how selfish you are, but I'm not saying any of these things, but this energy is still being transmitted in, you know, uh, my partner's brain is exceptionally sensitive to these messages and it causes a lot of harm and Right. Some, some relationships go for decades. Uh, having routine, like regularly having this kind of sex where the message that's being transmitted is not, I love you, but it's I hate you. It's so powerful.
Catherine: Yeah. Or it could be it's your job to manage my mood.
James: Yeah. Which is what the higher desire partner. Yeah. The higher desire transmitting that. It's like, my wellbeing is your responsibility.
Catherine: Yeah. And, and the lower desire partner might be transmitting something, some kind of response to that about like. Being with you is a burden. Um, you're hard to love. Yeah. You're hard to want. Yeah. You're not, you're not lovable. Like there's, there's these incredibly painful messages going back and forth. Yeah. And, and then they're wrapped in an orgasm and it's having this huge impact on your brain. Oh my gosh. Um, and so, yeah. I. I mean, I always advise couples not to have that kind of sex. Like it's better to not be having sex than to be having sex where those kinds of messages are getting wired in over and over. Yeah. But, um, yeah, I think that's where like marriage is a, a unique opportunity to work on your brain function for several reasons that you can do it in the sexual relationship with your partner. And if you're doing that on purpose, it can have huge benefits for both of you. I mean, you can work through a lot of trauma. You can. Um, create a much deeper sense of knowing your, your own goodness and and loving yourself. Um, you can develop the capacity for much deeper love and generosity and kindness, like it's a good place to be working on those things. And, and then also just the inherent difficulty of. Holding your brain together when there's someone seeing you up close who's got some critiques and some of it is fair and you know it.
James: and the key to all of it is, is being present and making contact.
Catherine: Yeah,
James: so Schorge talks about following the connection where, you know, if I'm used to having disconnected sex, like, so let's say I'm in a long-term relationship and sex has been falling apart for a long time. And so I'm used to bypassing that disconnection and getting. To a sufficient state of arousal where my body can just continue to have sex even though I'm not really present. The opposite would be I am going to pay attention to primarily the emotional connection right between me and my lover. And that's what, that's the primary and, and, uh, orgasm comes second, sex comes second. Any kind of particular sexual activity comes second. Then I'm gonna follow the connection and as long as the connection is still present. If I'm still present and you're still present with me, you know, then, then we will continue. But I'm not going to allow myself to bypass disconnection and continuing to disconnected sex. Right. Because it's so harmful.
Catherine: Yeah. I think some people mix this up with the idea that it should come naturally.
James: It's so far from natural and
Catherine: following the connection is not the same thing as this is spontaneous and natural. No. It, it means like, I can do this on purpose. I, and Schnarch has several exercises for people to work on. Their, their sexual connection or their physical emotional connection on purpose. Um, my favorite is touching well feeling that's about like. You for a set amount of time in set roles where one is giving and one is receiving. You're touching your partner and you're on purpose trying to transmit like your love for them. Yeah. Like that's the point of this. It's not to, to get them to a certain state of physical arousal. It's, it's to communicate, you know, heart to heart, mind to mind. Um, but I think it's about following the connection is about like being willing to go part way and stop. When you hit a point where you can't be present with each other, where you can feel your body going numb. Or you can't handle the intensity of eye contact, you have to look away or close your eyes or turn the lights out. Um, that's a good point to stop. And a lot of people are just rushing right past that. And having very numb, disconnected sex where they've dropped contact and, and there's no. A collaboration, uh, and you're just chasing a physiological reflux response, you know, and, and that's not good for the relationship.
James: Do you think dropping contact is the same as dropping an alliance? So, in Crucible world, we talk about dropping contact, like you just said. But we also talk about dropping an alliance and in that world of these, these words that come up in Crucible that I just never heard. Yeah. It's like, oh, you dropped your alliance with me. I'm like, what does that even mean? And so I've been thinking about it. An alliance is a pledge of loyalty or an agreement to be loyal to someone that's an alliance. And, and so if I drop my alliance, it's that I, um, have stopped. I, I can't even put it like I can, I can picture it in my mind what it means to drop an alliance. It's like, I don't care about you anymore.
Catherine: Yeah. I think it's close to that. Uh, is it the same as contact? I do think you can have contact in a negative way.
James: Okay. Um, so Alliance is positive contact and it is po It's like, well, it's so hard to describe. It's a great word, but it's, it's hard to,
Catherine: you're, you're talking about a collaborative alliance, so you could have a combative alliance.
James: Yeah. Which would be negative contact. And we talked about dropping the alliance, we're talking about dropping the collaborative alliance.
Catherine: Right, of course. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it like a negative alliance is like, uh, a lot of kids have an experience where a parent or a teacher is scolding them and is saying, look at me while I'm talking to you.
James: Yeah, there you go. Negative contact. Yeah. And, and the parent wants that contact. Yes. He wants to, I want to really hammer this into you. Right. I want to really make sure I'm getting it, getting you,
Catherine: I don't wanna give you a way out from the, yeah. From feeling my contempt for you or my anger at you Yes. Or whatever it is. So, so that's negative contact, but dropping an alliance, I, yeah. I think it's when you stop, meaning, well, when you stop caring on purpose.
James: Yeah.
Catherine: And you're willing to use someone or hurt someone,
James: Outside of Crucible, it's an alliance between two countries. It's always an alliance between two countries. So two countries agree that we are on the same side. I'm on your side. And so I think that's a good way of saying it, is when I drop my alliance, I am no longer on your side now. That I am now willing to pursue something for my own benefit that doesn't benefit you. Um, and you are no longer, your wellbeing is no longer important to you.
Catherine: Not even necessarily my own benefit. Because a lot of it isn't really good for us either when we're doing that. Like we're doing something that's indulgent. Right.
James: But it feels good in the moment.
Catherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do something for my moment. Momentary satisfaction. Yeah. Yeah. Enjoyment or whatever it is, right? Um, but I mean like an alliance between countries. If you sign onto an alliance and you're serious about it and the other country breaks the agreement. Then you, you're up against, well, what do I do now? You know, if, if these are my values and I hold them. Do I continue to hold them or do I choose that somebody else decides what my values are and what I live up to? Hmm. Like there's, there's this integrity piece to holding an alliance that's about like. I am the one deciding what I do versus I'm just reacting to you and if you do something bad, I'll do something bad too.
James: I think that's most of human behavior is just reacting to each other.
Catherine: Yeah. Uh, which leaves you resentful and feeling powerless and feeling like a victim and,
James: but it also gives you so much power in your relationship. So. The way I think about it is that in most say, most relationships, most of the behavior is just a reaction to the other person's behavior. And so most relationships, consist of an ongoing chain reaction. I'm reacting to my wife. My wife is reacting to me, and I'm reacting to my wife, and it goes back and forth, which means that if I am willing to do the difficult work of taking a proactive step and changing my energetic input into the relationship, uh, unilaterally, proactively. My wife is most likely going to react to that in a more positive way. Yeah, because she, that's what she's doing is she's reacting.
Catherine: So I think there's two things there. One of them is this is why presence matters so much, because that's how you get a choice.
James: Like yes. Because if you're not present, you're just instinctively responding,
Catherine: right? And, and so all forms of meditation are basically getting you to slow down enough that there's a space between the. Impetus and response, like the space between you receiving something and you doing something. Um, and you have to slow down enough to do it. And for me, getting into the census is the way that works best to do that. But then it's also about connecting with reality, because reality is you always get a choice. And. You are deceiving yourself when you think, well, I had no choice because they did that. That's never true. You're as agentic as your spouse. Um, but that, that's like how you get a sense of solidity as a person is to make more of those choices yourself.
James: Yeah. If I am agentic, then I'm not innocent though. Because if I have a choice, that means I'm responsible for my mistakes. And I think that's why's true. That's true. So, alright, this what just popped into my mind that, that we use, 'cause you're talking about this idea of, I'm, I'm using the idea that I didn't have a choice in order to not feel guilty. Uh, but in, so that's one way that we try to, it's an escape hatch. So an escape hatch from responsibility is. Well, I didn't have a choice. I did what I have to do. Okay. And another escape patch is, well, I don't know any better. I don't know what to do. Which I'veseen. So besides those two, not having a choice, not having the knowledge or the capacity, can you think of any others? Or is it just those two? That other escape patches? Yeah. People along with those. I'm sure you've heard those before. But what else do we, what else do we come up with as an excuse for why we're not taking action?
Catherine: Yeah. So we don't have a choice. I don't know what to do.
James: Maybe I'm too afraid,
Catherine: um, I'm too overwhelmed or traumatized. Which is similar to, I don't A choice, I afraid. Yeah. But it's like I'm too damaged to do any better.
James: Mm-hmm.
Catherine: I do think people pull that one that I'm, I'm too damaged to do any better.
James: That's interesting.
Catherine: Uh, which is a little similar to, I don't have a choice, but it's like, yeah. I, is this limitation coming from what is happening right now or is it coming from, you know, I had a really rough childhood and I'm just never gonna be Okay. Um,
James: embodied in this idea of, I don't know what to do, is it's, it's kind of encapsulating idea that if I did know, I would totally do it, which is usually false. And so maybe, maybe I'm not certain what I should be doing, but what's also usually true in that situation is. Even if I were certain, I probably wouldn't be doing it.
Catherine: The other thing I think is true is I am not willing to sit in the this anxiety. So that's what, why it's an escape hatch or this intensity, because you might not know what to do. Yeah. But you know what not to do.
James: Yeah, sure.
Catherine: You know what you've tried a hundred times that has only made things go badly. Yeah, and so you know not to do that. And the reason that you do it anyway is that you don't wanna be present with the intensity. But it's that thing that would put sufficient pressure on your brain that you'd come up with something different to try.
James: Yeah.
Catherine: And I aim for different, more than better just because it, it can be easy to sit around and twiddle your thumbs and feel like you're not clear on what's better, but if there's some, if it's qualitatively different. Hmm. Uh, it's probably going to produce more of a shift in the dynamic than doing the same thing. Yeah. You change the relationship and the, the thing, like if you don't do the thing you always do, then your partner doesn't have the, you're out of the ping pong game, like your partner doesn't get the thing they were expecting. Sure. And then it gives them a space. A minute to think about, well, what do I do now? You know, this is not how it usually goes. Yeah. It's different. So if you break yourself outta the pattern, you make it much harder for your partner to continue the pattern too. And NAR would say, if you want to get your partner to like map you, be more conscious about their interactions with you. Pay more attention. You wanna do something that is unexpected and positive. And it's not enough for it to be positive. It can't just be the, and it's not enough for it to be unexpected. Like can't just be wacky and it can't just be the nice things that you always do. Yeah. It's gotta be something that gets them to, it gets their brain to engage differently and be like, well, hang on. Who's this person? You know, what do I do with that? Um.
James: I think with the trap we can get into of, I think it's easy for me to judge my actions based on my partner's response. Uh, as opposed to judging my actions based on how do I evaluate how well I acted in this, you know, it's, people often say, well, I tried that. I've tried that already, which means that I. You know, tried altering something and my partner still responded poorly.
Catherine: So it didn't work.
James: Yeah, it didn't work. I tried that and it didn't work, but, but the idea is that I need to look in the mirror and say, what kind of person do I want to become and what's the next step on that path? And I need to execute on that plan and, and my partner's response is useful information, but it cannot be the deciding factor. Oftentimes, if I've been stuck in a multi-decade rough relationship and I'm starting to break outta that mold, my partner's going to initially respond poorly to that, especially if I'm breaking long-term patterns of behavior that we've gotten comfortable with. Yeah. So, for example, if, if, if we've been having, you know, uh, resentful sex for, for decades and I say, I'm not gonna have, you know, resentful sex anymore, that is not something that's just gonna go over easy. That's gonna be a, a real rough change.
Catherine: Yeah. I, and I've seen myself do this when someone starts to change in a positive way and, and there's just like, change is hard. Even when it's good, even when you want it, and it's so intuitive for your brain to find a way to like, let's get this back into kind of known territory, you know?
James: Yeah. Let's get things back. How I like, um.
Catherine: It's really intuitive. It's hard to resist. Even when you know about that, even when you're anticipating it going in, like it's not easy to resist that, but I think so some markers of I are you moving yourself in a good direction on the brain function side? Like clarity versus fogginess is one of the things that I look at. Like, when I did this, did I feel more clear or more foggy? Um, sort of a, a felt sense of do I feel settled, piece in my body sensory level? And you could feel settled in at peace, even when you're taking a big risk.
James: Yeah.
Catherine: You can feel like, you know, this is. This is a move I can respect, even though I don't know what's gonna happen next. And it could hurt.
James: Yeah. Okay. Should we wrap it up there?
Catherine: Sure.
James: Thank you Catherine.
Catherine: Thanks.
